Comments on: The 19th Wife – Book Review

By: Caribousmom

Caribousmom — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:23:43 +0000

Jana: Your comment is a good example of why this is a good book for discussion Thanks for weighing in on the controversy.

By: Jana

Jana — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 04:11:45 +0000

I just finished reading this book, the last 75 pages were kind of anti-climactic, and the story jumped around so much that I had a hard time keeping up. It might have worked better as separate stories within the same book, rather than jumping around.

Regarding LDS, I’m not LDS, but I grew up with many, and worked for a few. All people who looked to the church to find a compass for their life, a way to live as better human beings. But I also know people who have left the church and are quite bitter about their experiences. But honestly – I could say the same about any church. There is hypocracy in the Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, and mega-independent mall-like churches too. Every organization says they are the ‘true’ path to God. Every one of those churches accepts the Old Testament as the holy word of God. And the Old Testament includes plural marriage. And every one of those organizations has made public statements in the present and past against homosexuality, causing schisms within the congregations.

But here’s where I disagree with the TBM’s (true believer mormons) about why plural marriage was ended. It didn’t work. Look at how unhappy people were in the Old Testament – all those horny men who wanted the ‘pretty young thing’ wives – whether David, Solomon, etc. Lots of drama in their lives because of jealousy, favored children, etc.

Even without the pressure of the US Government, the Mormons would have stopped plural marriage eventually, because so many would have eventually rebelled against it – because plural marriage made people miserable. The character of Kelly Dee said it best (I’m paraphrasing here): eliminating plural marriage probably saved LDS from itself. Otherwise there would have been a massive schism, especially in the 20th century as the LDS members had more contact with the outside world, as mass communications improved.

Finally, while I was emotionally touched by all the unhappiness among the wives (and their children). But what REALLY chapped my hide was reading about the WICS checks arriving at the Mesadale post office! I have read this happens in FLDS and other break off groups too. They also have all their kids at hospitals and use medicaid, use food stamps, etc. For a group of people that believes in religious freedom (from government internvention), they sure don’t seem to mind taking the tax payers welfare money.

I’m fine with having a passel of kids, but I think parents should pay for them out of their own pocketbooks, not my taxpayer dollars. I’m hoping FLDS gets shut down on welfare fraud / fathers not paying child support. It would be similar to Al Capone going to the slammer because he didn’t pay taxes on his ill gotten gains.

By: Caribousmom

Caribousmom — Thu, 21 May 2009 16:16:27 +0000

Rae and 2 of 6: Thanks for having this dialogue. I believe it is important for people to have these kinds of discussions…whether agreement can be found or not, being able to listen to the other side and putting forth one’s thoughts without personal attacks is what breeds understanding. I am a firm believer in a person’s right to choose for themselves what to believe…although I am a Christian, I am willing to listen to other viewpoints. The ONLY issue I have with fundamentalist Mormonism is the forcing of young girls to marry adult men. It is important to me to distinguish between the fundamentalist view and the more mainstream church (as Rae points out, she does not practice pologamy and never would). Every religion has its fanatics and extremists…

By: rae

rae — Mon, 18 May 2009 22:42:47 +0000

2 of 6, I apreciate the time and effort you have taken to respond and to make your thoughts and reasons clear. And I’m sure there is absolutely nothing wrong with us, at this point, agreeing to disagree as I fear the longer this exchange continues the further we will get from the purpose of this discussion – the novel, which shall be added to my ‘to read list’ and no doubt read with interest eventually. I certainly hope I have not caused any offence in the veiws I have expressed and would like to re iterate that I totally respect your right to believe whatever you wish and look forward to the same level of respect being returned regardless of whether my personal beliefs are seen to be misguided or not.
( I would also like to re iterate that I agree with caribousmom in the concerns expressed in connection with the practise of polygamy, and also assure anyone reading that I am definately an only wife and will be remaining so ;o)

By: 2 of 6

2 of 6 — Mon, 18 May 2009 20:46:26 +0000

Ok, I did say: “The idea that one’s spiritual progress is fulfilled by taking on additional wives (for a man) or being a plural wife (for a woman) sounds ludicrous to me as I think about it now. But I accepted it when I was a true believer, because when you are a true believer in Mormonism, BELIEVING is what it is ALL about.”
And I stand by that statement. Yes, the current LDS church does not teach that NOW. But it DID when plural marriage was a living part of its system. Where do you think the FLDS got that idea? And when I joined the LDS church back in 1968, it was still being taught that in the days when plural marriage WAS practiced within the church, the justification that the church used was that it was “ESSENTIAL” to one’s salvation, not just optional. You look in the historic writings of the LDS church, read in Journal of Discourses, and that’s exactly what you’ll find. Today, of course, most of that ikky history has been expunged and sanitized by the church and what it currently teaches. How convenient. I still reel when I think about Gordon Hinkley telling Larry King that the teaching of “as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become” is something that, to quote or at least paraphrase Hinkley, was something that we didn’t teach nor was it ever really taught, he said. And he acted like it was something he’d never heard before. What intellectual dishonesty that was! I’m sorry, but the LDS church is really all about, as I said before that “when you are a true believer in Mormonism, BELIEVING is what it is ALL about” because that’s what the members do: they believe what they are told. And even when their prophet tells them that something they’ve been teaching for a hundred years is something that he doesn’t know was ever taught in the church, then the members all line up like sheep and agree that I guess we never taught that. THIS is ignorance and cultish conformity at the highest level. The Mormons worship the Mormon church. The Mormon church IS their god.

By: rae

rae — Mon, 18 May 2009 16:30:44 +0000

sorry, I thought 2 of 6 was saying that they were taught that
” one’s spiritual progress is fulfilled by taking on additional wives (for a man) or being a plural wife (for a woman)”
as a member of the LDS church, so my response was to that as I certainly have not come across that one. maybe they meant FLDS. if so my mistake
I obviously agree with your reiterated point. I can’t imagine anything that would make me ok with that

By: Caribousmom

Caribousmom — Mon, 18 May 2009 11:42:24 +0000

Rae: Thank you for weighing in. I have made this point multiple times, and will once again say: THIS book is about FLDS, NOT LDS…the two are very different. So I am not surprised that your experience (being LDS) does not relate to much of what is being talked about in this thread. That said, I want to reiterate that personal religious choices are just that – personal…and I would never tell someone what religion to practice. I draw the line at child abuse (ie: forcing young girls into marriage with older men).

By: rae

rae — Mon, 18 May 2009 11:22:55 +0000

hhhmmm, interesting conversation. I would just like to back up book of mormon’s point and say I have been LDS for 27 years (as opposed to FLDS) and have never once heard the idea taught
that ” one’s spiritual progress is fulfilled by taking on additional wives (for a man) or being a plural wife (for a woman)” or anything like that. I am obvously aware that it happened at times in history but also that it was for a very specific reason at the time, hence it being resinded after that.
Also on a tongue in cheek level I have to disagree with the statement that mormons do what they are told. we are definately people rather than robots with all the differences that come with it. I would say Caribousmom’s statement “I think many churches provide strong moral guidelines for their congregations…it is a personal choice and every individual needs to choose what is right for him or her.” is very much the case for us as with anyone else. yes, our church is not afraid to stand up and say what it believes but each of us have the choice of whether to follow or not as does the rest of the world. And I have always been taught at church to respect others rights to believe different to me, something I am actually very thankful for.

By: Caribousmom

Caribousmom — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:40:23 +0000

Book of Mormon: You make a good point about having an insider’s view. As I mentioned above, however, I would be more tolerant if polygamy did not involve young girls who are often under the age of 16…to me this is child abuse, pure and simple. If two consenting ADULTS want to engage in pleural marriage I say “whatever”…to each his own; but a child cannot give consent. I think many churches provide strong moral guidelines for their congregations…it is a personal choice and every individual needs to choose what is right for him or her.

By: The Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:20:53 +0000

Reading dissenters’ version of history will never compare to actually reading The Book of Mormon and deciding for yourself if the doctrines it teaches are true.
Polygamy was practiced by a very small percentage of LDS men. Like in Biblical times of old (Solomon for example) God instituted polygamy for a short time for His purposes. Then He rescinded it.
The LDS Church does provide strong guidelines, but that is one reason why I’m attracted to it. So many churches today are afraid to say what’s right and what’s wrong. I’m looking for a religion that’s willing to stand for something.